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Corey Boutwell Podcast
Harsh Truths Young Men Need To Hear with Dr. Robert Glover #241
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And so even not receiving well is probably a controlling behavior, if you think about it.
Speaker 2:Dr Robert Glover. Thank you so much for coming on to the show. All right.
Speaker 1:You're recording right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm recording, it's go time, it's go time.
Speaker 1:It's go time. Thanks for inviting me to Queensland to come hang out with you.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited, thanks for inviting me to Queensland to come hang out with you. I'm so excited. Yeah, I'm super excited as well. I've recently finished reading your book after, in an old relationship of mine, I realized how anxiously attached I was and I didn't realize until I got to the last chapters in your book around the sexual shame that came up that come up in there, and it was one of the most like I was reading that and I started listening to it afterwards. It was one of the most profound experiences because I was like, oh my gosh, that's me and I didn't even realize it. Like essentially, having your own sexuality shunned and feeling guilty for being a sexual being and some of the questions that you ask in there.
Speaker 2:It was like you know, go back to your first sexual experiences and think about if they were healthy or not, and I was like none of mine have been healthy for the longest time and I was like I felt so seen in that moment, and I wanted to firstly talk to you about that, because I had a conversation with a friend last night and he was like, wow, that is something that I have been experiencing so much, too, and I haven't been able to put words to it. So, firstly, thank you for writing the book and I'd like to talk to you about that and your thoughts.
Speaker 1:Okay, Sexual shame. That's a good place to start, yeah, yeah, that's more interesting than starting out with oh so what is a nice guy? Sexual shame, good Sex with shame, good place to dive in. You know something I actually am proud of a kind of backstory is that prior to me, like beginning my own personal recovery, personal growth of nice guy syndrome and just you know me starting to be introspective and work on myself. I was pretty early in my second marriage I already had a doctorate in marriage and family therapy. I'd never been to therapy, wasn't particularly introspective, Really probably never read much of any self-help books. I think I read the Road Less Traveled. I really liked that book by Scott Peck.
Speaker 1:But I remember my second wife loved self-help, loved going to therapy and like on her honeymoon she was reading Women who Love Too Much. You know. I had to finally say would you put the book away? We're on our honeymoon, right. And so I remember she really got into John Bradshaw and he's written a number of books on shame. He's got one called, I think, healing the Shame that Binds you.
Speaker 1:And I remember lying in bed and she's reading this and she's just like kind of making noises and she goes oh, oh, oh, and go what? Because this is you. And I go, what do you mean? She goes well, he's talking about shame. And I go what shame? And he goes. And so she reads me this part you know about.
Speaker 1:You know I don't remember what it said, but something about. You know the inner loathing and and not good, and you know all that fear being found out. And I said that doesn't sound anything like me. I said that sounds like you. You're the one that hates yourself. And you know, you know always wishes you were something different or different, or wishes you were back where you used to be before you got to be. And I said but here's the thing, you know, I'm a reasonably intelligent, intelligent person. I had a PhD at 29 years old, um, so I'm not dumb. I get concepts pretty, pretty well.
Speaker 1:I, I couldn't grasp it. I, I, I struggled with understanding number one, what was shame, and number two, what did it look like? You know how, how could, could, how could this person next to me going that's you, that's you, you got, that's your shame. And like not only could, I couldn't relate to it as like me having it, but I couldn't even understand really the concept. So later, after years later, after doing a lot of work and writing no more mr nice guy while I was married to that particular person. Probably one of the highest compliments I get is when somebody says robert, I really loved how you talked about shame and you in no more mr nice guy, because it really. I came away the really grasp and understanding of I go. Good, that's the highest compliment I could get, because I didn't even fucking understand what shame was at some point in my life, so I must have gotten at least some handle on it to talk about Now.
Speaker 1:Where I first really came to understand shame personally was fast forward a little bit in that marriage. Maybe a year or two later I'd acted out. And then my wife found out about it and confronted me. She said you need help, you need to get into therapy, so you're a sex addict. And I thought, well, we're not having enough sex for me to be a sex addict, but okay.
Speaker 1:So I went to a 12 step group for sex addicts sex addicts anonymous group and quickly found out I wasn't a sex addict. I'm. I'm an uh, an affirmation addict. A sex addict. I'm an affirmation addict. You know, if a woman you know likes me and thinks I'm great and then wants to have sex with me. Well, who am I to say no to the sex? Because she likes me, she affirms me. So I'm more of an affirmation addict, you know, a codependent. You know I get my value externally.
Speaker 1:So I get in this 12-step group and I think it met like at 5.30, 6 o'clock in the morning oncestep group and I think I met like at 5.30, 6 o'clock in the morning once a week and it's just guys and a bunch of dudes, you know, most of them pretty hardcore, that's a pretty hardcore shit going on in their lives. And I'd go to these, I'd look forward to going to these meetings because for the first time in my life I just started revealing things about me, things that I'd never told anybody, didn't let people see, kept hidden thoughts, feelings, sexual impulses, dark side things I was angry about. I'd never shared anything that was real about me and so I'm sharing this stuff in these groups and I quickly found out they're not going to reject me, they're not going to think I'm a horrible person, they're not going to kick me out of the group. Yeah, because they were probably thinking why is this guy even here? You know he's nothing like the rest of us.
Speaker 1:We got real shameful shit going on and but it was like I enjoyed going to these sessions at like 530 in the morning, going to these sessions at like 5.30 in the morning, and it's like I'd never felt the bliss of just being real, of being authentic, of being vulnerable, of just putting myself out there and especially nobody having a negative reaction.
Speaker 1:And I had also started into therapy at the same time and it's like I'd go to therapy and I'd share you know some darker stuff of myself. And the therapist was a woman and she just kind of looked at me with this kindly look on her face and say, well, let's explore that, let's see what that's about. I'm going. Oh, you're not reacting negatively to this dark stuff. And, yeah, again, it probably may not have been all that dark to you know, she probably heard a lot, of, a lot of darker stories than what I had. But you know what? That was my first real experience to starting to just be me take a look at my shame, get more accurate feedback from other people who had no investment in shaming me or me staying stuck in the same place to say I'm not bad, I'm not defective, I'm not unlovable, I'm not all that different from everybody else, so that's where my own journey around personal shame began is in that context.
Speaker 2:Insane. It's so insane when you start realizing that I went for a walking meditation this morning and it was the first time that I admitted to myself. I was like I'm a sex addict. It's very small and very slight, but I was like my brain. I've done everything possible. I don't follow or like any girls, I don't go scrolling any of that stuff, but there's still something in the back of my mind that is just like addicted to this, like sort of validation from like the opposite sex, and it doesn't stop. And I'm like man, this is so small, what the hell is going on? So I want to know, like from you, like if men think, oh, I haven't got any sexual, same, I haven't got that, I'm good, whatever, how can? What are the symptoms that men have in their life that they can identify and then start thinking, oh shit, maybe I should start looking into this yeah, well, let's, let's back up to the.
Speaker 1:you know the thing that you you were sharing earlier about. You know that I ask in the book Something I do still pretty regularly in my workshops and I finished writing no More, Mr Nice Guy, about 25 years ago. It took about six, seven years to write, three years to get it published. A lot of publishers said we love your book, Robert, but our marketing department says men won't buy a self-help book. Well, they're wrong. It's been going strong for almost 25 years and the royalty checks get bigger every year. So men buy self-help books. Thank goodness to podcast and Amazon, where people can go hear about a book. Go on Amazon and Amazon. People bought this book, bought this book and this book. So men do buy the books, which is great. So I also all of a sudden lost my place. Like I told you, it's already been a long day. Remind me where I was at. I feel like Joe Biden in a debate all of a sudden.
Speaker 1:What was I talking?
Speaker 2:about. Where am I? What's going on here? I got this. I was talking about how I went for a walk meditation and then I was like, wow, I'm a sex addict. How men will know.
Speaker 1:How men will know. Yeah, okay, yeah, this is probably an issue of not enough carbs this afternoon rather than anything else. So one of the things I often do in my workshops is I will have people think about their first sexual memory, first sexual experience, and I said it doesn't matter what it was. Maybe the first time you noticed as a little boy you had an erection. Or, you know, first time you played with a neighbor child. I'll show you mine, you show me yours. First kiss, first wet dream, first sexual trauma, abuse, violation, whatever. And I'll say just kind of get a picture of that and just kind of be with it. And then I ask them what was the context? Did it happen in the open? Was it joyful? Was it blissful? Was it something you could talk about afterwards? Was it something you could go to your parents and say, guess what, mom and dad, this just happened to me. And they said that's fantastic, that's an important developmental marker. Let's go get pizza and celebrate. And everybody's looking at me like you're crazy. No, that shit didn't happen.
Speaker 1:99.9% of the people, their first sexual memory was secretive, hidden, guilt-ridden, shame-based. Hidden, guilt-ridden, shame-based. Um. Maybe it felt good, but they felt bad for it feeling good. And so that means for the, for the majority of the people walking the planet like I'm talking about, just about everybody, because every culture is fucked up sexually. Almost for every person on this planet, our first sexual experiences were shame-based, guilt, hidden, dark, secretive, and especially if it felt good and felt bad at the same time, that creates such an inner conflict for a young child. Well, my body felt good, I liked it, but that's bad. That's, uncle Joe, or I'm told that's a sin, or I'm going to go to hell, or God's watching me, or my parents are going to, you know, punish me. But I want to do it again because it felt good. Right? So what happens is our sexuality, which is like just the most healthy, natural, fierce, powerful drive we have as human beings. Right, it's just wired into us to be sexual. You know, every living thing creates after its own kind, otherwise it doesn't exist. So this is meant to be right.
Speaker 1:Whether you're religious or believe, you know, just evolve, whatever your belief is. It's there for a reason, and it gets crosswired with secrecy, with guilt, with shame, with anxiety, with fear, fear, fear of getting caught. So then most of us grow up through adolescence, young adulthood into adulthood, and the only way most of us know how to have sex is in a secretive, hidden. Don't get found out, don't be known, don't let anybody. You know that kind of way and unfortunately, that secrecy, guilt and shame.
Speaker 1:Actually not only does it cross-wire to sex, so that's the only way we can kind of get aroused and experience sex, it also amps it up, it gives it more energy.
Speaker 1:Anything you do in secret, anything anxiety-based, is going to give it a hell of a lot more energy.
Speaker 1:So, whatever you've got like perking around in your head that just kind of persist, bringing it out into the light of day, bringing it out into a safe place, talking about it with safe people, revealing, feeling your fear, feeling your anxiety, feeling your shame, finding out from other people you're probably not at all alone or unique, and whatever is going on inside your head and finding out that they don't, they're not disgusted with you and they don't think you're a terrible human being. All of that is going. Why did I keep this hidden and secretive and packed away for so long? Well, it's because it's what culture and religion and family teaches us to do. But once we start letting it out, then our sexuality is it's just this amazing, you know, flowing river, it's just this and it can start flowing in its own direction and manifesting and we can celebrate it and we can express it in authentic and conscious and integrated and open kind of ways. So yeah, getting it out of that shame place is huge.
Speaker 2:It is. It's insane and I like I read the book Facing Shame by Merle Ace. I can't remember I read that book and that for me was I actually physically read the book. It was pretty mind blowing because it talked about-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to keep going back and forth Before we started the call. Ben, do we listen to books or do we read books?
Speaker 2:So we'll probably keep going back.
Speaker 1:I'm not familiar with it. I'll have with. I have to listen to, I have to read that book.
Speaker 2:It was yeah, it was actually robert bligh recommendation. I was listening to robert bligh, so I was listening to okay, and then he said in one of the things he's like, how I learned about shame was reading this book by a friend of mine called merle a I can't remember and someone else. I've got the book around here and um and and I have this thing in my mind where if someone who I respect, who I think is amazing, recommends a book and Robert was like I learned everything from shame from this book, I was like, oh, I'm going to read it. Then I'm going to read it.
Speaker 1:Good for you.
Speaker 2:And they mentioned him in the book as well and I read it and it blew my brain from, like control and release cycles and then understanding how there's, like you know, active shame and then the passive shame, and then there's like things get sort of calm and then, um, uh, things can educate me, tell me, tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 1:What is the active and passive?
Speaker 2:I'll get the book. I'll get the book because I gotta see like this is really cool and I thought it was. This is the book, by the way, here facing shame by merle a fossum and marilyn j mason um all right, hold that up again.
Speaker 1:Let me see it again. That book cover looks really familiar. Yeah, it's old school facing shame. Yeah, okay, I gotta check that out, it's it.
Speaker 2:It has literally blown my brain. If you learn anything on it and you see anything here, that's just like awesome. Please like message me because I want to talk about it. Anyone who's read this book I've got one other mate that's read it because I was like you got to read this man and as soon as he read it he was like we just don't stop talking about it. I was like I've never felt so seen before in my life. But let me get the cycle.
Speaker 1:I love what you just said, when you start revealing shame to people and they reciprocate and reveal that experience of never feeling so seen in your life. That's what I felt going to those 12-step meetings and it was like you can't tell somebody. You know. It's like you know. I was on an interview earlier this week and somebody said tell us about your ayahuasca ceremonies. You did and I go no, my rule of thumb is tell people. Don't try to explain somebody. You know what you saw on. You know psilocybin, mdma, lsd or ayahuasca. Nobody's going to get it Like tell them about this dream that you had. So you know the thing. You know about shame. You know about shame. You know if people haven't really kind of you'll look at that themselves before talking about it, they're just going to kind of look at your fun.
Speaker 1:So um, so yeah, talk about it with people that that get it yes I, I definitely, I am definitely going to go on amazon and I'm going to order that book hey, thank you for ordering that.
Speaker 2:I feel like cool being able to give you a piece of value. I'm like that is like the best time ever, um. So this is the graph. You can see what it looks like. It's basically, for those who are listening, it's four boxes and you start in the top right hand box and it actually talks about active abuse, which is in a state of um, in hot interaction, it's like overt. So there's active abuse and then active abuse when you're working on shame turns to quiet abuse, which I think is something that you nailed in your book with the nice guys.
Speaker 2:We are such quiet abusers. You know that hide things and then manipulate in our own mind. This is what I've learned from you Manipulate in our own mind that we're not abusing that and we're fine and we're doing the right thing, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like man. I'm just such a like for me personally, I resonate with so much. I'm like I'm a quiet abuser and I'm not like to the nth degree because I work on myself so much, but I'm like these slight, subtle things are so controlling and I hate them. And then it moves to the other side here on this, on this side, which is you got respect, is like these two columns on the left-hand side of respect and these two on the left-hand, uh, respectful respect is calm, so it's a cooler interaction, like your calm, and then intimate is the top right-hand one, which is what I find from learning from you.
Speaker 2:This is what I found in your book. I was like man, us nice guys seeking intimacy so much and this is a point I actually wanted to talk about. I was like we seek intimacy, intimacy so much. We feel like we don't have it and we want it so bad and like nothing that we can do or nothing that we can get from someone else is ever enough. I'm always like for me, I had this realization yesterday. I was like man, everything I do is just never enough. Like my partner, I'm like my partner. My ex-partner could literally never do enough and I'd still be seeking more and I was like why. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Shame, explain shame. Yeah Well, and again I'm going to have to go take a look at that diagram because I really like that model that shame blocks intimacy. Shame and intimacy are just diametrically opposed. Because when we have shame and you know, even though I've made a joke about you know me not explaining what's a nice guy, let me say a little bit about it, because how this shows up, and actually we still haven't answered your question about how can a guy know if they have sexual shame. So I don't forget everything. I did come back to it.
Speaker 1:So the shame for the nice guy because he's inaccurately internalized at a very young age I'm talking about three days old, three weeks old, three months old any uncomfortable, painful experience. A child, any child, not just nice guy any infant, young child will internalize. I'm the cause of that and because children are narcissistic by nature, we're grandiose by nature, we're the cause of it and we also think if we cause it, we can prevent it or fix it right. That's grandiose as well. So like, if mom's sad, we think we caused it and therefore we can fix it. If dad's angry or yelling, we caused it, therefore we can fix it Both. Both are grandiose, equally grandiose. And whenever those experiences happen, if we think we're the cause, we must be bad.
Speaker 1:Now, this is not an intellectual belief. We, we record this as an emotional belief down in the brain, stem way down under here in the primitive part of our brain, in the in the part of our brain that has the amygdala, the fight, flight, freeze survival. It regulates respiration, it regulates heartbeat. It's the only part of the brain Well, I don't know that that's completely accurate but it's the part of the brain in children when we're born that is the most online and active. That brainstem, the amygdala, the fight, flight, freeze. Everything's about survival. Prefrontal cortex reasoning part of the brain doesn't start coming online until a couple years old and in men doesn't finish getting wired up to about 25. That's why our car insurance goes down when we quit doing so many stupid things. We get more reasonable right About 25. It's just brain wiring, Not that we learn more, our brains just get ready. But that amygdala, the fight, fight, actually the survival, is online at birth and the theory is with neuroscientists that that part of the brain stores up emotional memory, kind of creates our roadmap, our paradigm for us and the world, and long before we can store up intellectual memory, word memory, even picture memory. We're storing emotional memory. That's shame. Shame is emotional memory. We don't have words to go with it. We don't even have pictures to go with it. Now, down the road, we will start putting words with it. We'll start putting pictures, memories, kind of our video intake with it, but originally it's just emotional in nature. But we store it up and then we all then try to find ways to deal with it.
Speaker 1:Every human being tries to find ways to deal with those inaccurately emotional, stored belief systems. For what nice guys do? We try to do two things. We try, number one, to cope with that by becoming what we think other people want us to be. So you know, I think you'll like this. I'll become that because of shame, right? So, for example, you know you and I are doing this interview and if I'm really bound by that shame, I'm going to watch everything. I'll watch your face, your eyes, your body language. If I say something and you nod, okay, I'll keep saying that, cause that's good, you'll like that.
Speaker 1:If I say something, you kind of, you know, pause and kind of get a look, I go oh, that was the wrong thing to say. Don't bring that one up again. Right, that would be a shame base. I got to keep reading my situation. So one, I'm trying to become what I think you want me to be, so you'll approve of me, You'll like me, maybe I'll get some needs met. Okay, yeah, there's all the body language. Good, I must be saying it right, it's landing.
Speaker 1:The second thing that I'm trying to do is to try to hide anything that I think might get a negative reaction from you, that might get that weird look or get scolded or get shamed or get you know or abandoned. So I'm going through life as a nice guy because of that shame that says I'm not okay as I am. There's something wrong with me, something bad I don't know the words with it. But I'm trying to become what I think you want me to be, to be liked, loved and get my needs met, and hide anything about me that might get a negative reaction. And we don't know we're doing this. It's so wired into our nervous system. We've been doing it since we were three months old, three years old, and we just carry that on into adolescence and adulthood.
Speaker 1:Now, as we get old enough to start having memory, now we remember getting scolded by mom or dad. Now we remember getting punished by them. Now we remember getting teased by kids on the playground. Now we remember getting punished by them. Now we remember getting teased by kids on the playground. Now we remember making a bad grade and getting embarrassed in school, or maybe going to the blackboard and math class and not knowing how to do the assignment. Maybe we get memories of a girl we liked laughing at us or, you know, giggling and running away from us or getting rejected or lied to or or cheated on or just rejected over and over. Now those things become the stories we lay on top of the shame and we think those things are the cause of the shame. Or we think they're real, they're the proof, but they're actually just stuff that we laid on top of the emotional memory. So that's where we start getting to the shame.
Speaker 1:It's not the real shame, but if we can start talking about the things we have shame about, you know, getting scolded, being embarrassed, looking stupid, getting rejected, getting cheated on, it can open the door down to the deep emotional aspects of I must be bad, I must be unlovable, I must not be good enough. Everybody can see it. I better hide it. I better be good, I better, you know, and that's how it just perpetuates in life. And the only way I know to do that is to go find safe people. I did it in a 12-step group with a therapist. I then joined a men's group around sexual shame that I was in for five or six years. That's when I started writing. No More, mr Nice Guy.
Speaker 1:Now I often say there's nothing about me that at least somebody on this planet doesn't know about. I have no secrets as far as I can think of. There's nothing about me that is secret. I'm a very public person. I do interviews, podcasts, I talk about myself and it's liberating. And I still have shame. I can still get embarrassed, I can still get kind of defensive, I can still kind of feel like an attack.
Speaker 1:But I don't watch it now. I know, oh, that just triggered my shame, that triggered some anxiety, that triggered I better defend myself or vindicate myself that I'm not bad. So I can watch it now I notice because that that emotional part written on my amygdala, that may always be down there, right, it may not. I may rewrite some of it, overwrite some of it, but I don't know that I'll. I'll erase it, you know, purge it, but I can watch it. I see when it comes up. I just notice and it'll still come up. You know, purge it, but I can watch it. I see when it comes up and it'll still come up. You know, I might, I might.
Speaker 1:I might say something like, for example, when I forgot what I was talking about right On that moment earlier in the call. I had a little bit of shame about that. I thought, oh no, people are going to think I'm a senile old man, you know. And so I did. I watched that come up and then I just go. Okay, that's interesting. So I made the joke about Joe Biden, but there was some shame around it. Now maybe, as I'm getting older, I do have some slips like that, but honestly it probably was.
Speaker 1:I need to eat something and I've kind of been going nonstop today and I mentioned to you earlier I had a 90-minute call with Mark Manson earlier today, so it's been a big full day. My wife left at 4 o'clock this morning to go to the airport. There's a lot of things, but I had shamed it. Oh no, they're going to think I'm a senile old man, because I couldn't remember what we were talking about in the middle of a sentence. That's shame, okay, and now I'm telling you about my shame and it's not going to bother me. After this call is over, it's going okay. That just happened. Came and went, it's done. I'm human, it's good. I'm gonna go eat something now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that kind of that's that's all yeah which is a great reflection, because just as like reassurance, like I didn't see that at all from that point of view, because I'm like I mess up stuff all the time yeah, and you know I didn't.
Speaker 1:I didn't even attach shame to it until just now, as I was kind of talking through it, that was, I had a shame attack back then. That, oh no, I, I lost my place and you know I gotta come across as like you know, having my shit together and knowing what I'm talking about, and you know, you know being you know not not like Joe Biden, right. So yeah, so I'll just keep running with that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I love that you addressed that. I think that's very powerful too, because it shows a skill of like okay, this is a skill that I've now learned from practicing this all the time, which I think makes you look, you know, just in terms of like looking. It makes you look more powerful than where there would be shame, which I think is awesome.
Speaker 1:And it does. You know, I had a client just before I got on the call with you, a new client. It was our first session. He's in his mid twenties and we're talking about dating and he's kind of a woman. He's been dating for a month or two and we started talking about vulnerability and I mentioned, you know, I just interviewed Mark Manson earlier today and his book Models.
Speaker 1:He says that vulnerability is the basis of charisma, that it's attractive. You know, kind of in the red pill world these days, don't be vulnerable, don't be vulnerable. And the truth is now, don't turn an unsuspecting person into your emotional tampon or your therapist. Don't turn an unsuspecting person into your emotional tampon or your therapist. But vulnerability is power and that authenticity is really attractive and so like, as you said now that I just kind of own it. I had a shame attack about that. I'm now more trustworthy, I'm probably more relatable, probably more likable, just got to go. Yeah, I had that glitch right there and I felt some shame about it and I tried to, you know, use a little humor to mask it and yeah, it was just shame. You're like I wasn't perfect, you know, I, I, I fucked up, um, but I'm not a fuck up just because you know there was a fuck up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that so much and I want to um with this into. It is like men. I know for sure One thing that really resonated with me just staying on the sex train for now or changing a bit Cause I noticed it Cause I think it's powerful.
Speaker 1:We will come back and answer that question at some point At the very end of the podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, but I one thing that was noticed was it's like nice guys who you know, which I, which I just read the book Anxiously Attached. I'm like that's essentially what we are. It's like nice guys syndrome is like anxiously attached and it's very similar. But they are hypersexual. And with the hypersexual there's a part of them that wants to please so much more, like your book, wants to please so much more in sex and do everything you know for their partner and not worry about themselves as much.
Speaker 2:And I went and had, like um, an energy session with some lady, like it was about as a monday actually, it was actually monday, man, it's weeks gone so fast. She was just like you know, going over my body and she was like okay, so pretty much everywhere in you is centered except for like your sacral and like your root chakras, Like those ones are like blocked and like no surprise, no surprise. And I was like what? And then she's like how are you with receiving pleasure? And I was like good. And then she asked me some other questions and I was like terrible, I was like I'm really bad at that and I thought I was great.
Speaker 2:I'm like this sex master knows all these techniques and do this stuff that I like to apply, but then, when it comes to actually receiving, you know, pleasure in general, I started reflecting. I was like man, my 31st birthday, like my part of their time. She probably spent like close to $10,000 on me for for like my 30th birthday. Oh, my goodness, yeah, something crazy. She bought me a sauna. How'd you let her go, man?
Speaker 1:I know right well, there's gotta be more.
Speaker 2:There's gotta be more to the story, right, yeah, right, well, it was. She just like just wanted to celebrate me for the whole day, right, and it was like. It was like the best thing ever.
Speaker 1:It's all about you, all about you it's about me.
Speaker 2:You know how hard that was I was. And they were saying she's like oh, would you just receive? And shit, I'm like I am trying but I can't, because being the center of attention as you, as you mentioned in your book I was like being the center of attention is actually uncomfortable for me and all my friends are around and everyone was here and I was like, oh, I'm trying my hardest to receive this and I literally can't and my nervous system is activated. And then a part of me like cause I felt so guilty about that, like there was some unconscious things that I said that will either control her or made her not feel received. And then I think like it's like for the rest of the year I'd been trying to cling on and control and manipulate a nice guy, that shit, out of the situation that she ended up being like I'm grossed out. Well, now.
Speaker 1:Now I know what happened, yeah, and you're all going back. Fuck, if I just let her. You know, do nice things for me back on my 30, you know well, yeah, welcome to the club. Because I remember, uh, yeah, I, I kind of I don't cringe about this anymore, but for a while I did when I was married to my second wife. She, she was gorgeous.
Speaker 1:Everywhere we went, people go, that's your wife and I go, yeah, and everybody would say the same thing she's gorgeous. They'd all use that same word she was gorgeous and and she was, and she was batshit crazy too. But she was gorgeous. And you know, I see, she, she would not be offended by me saying she was batshit crazy, um, but there was a saying that she was gorgeous and so, you know, I wanted to please her all the time and which meant I put up with all kinds of terrible stuff and including bad sex. And I remember telling her one time I don't care if I ever come, as long as you're happy, right, I just want to make you happy. And you know now, you know later I I kind of cringed, it was so nice guy before I kind of began any kind of nice guy recovery and yeah, just wanting to please the other, but I promise you that 40 years ago Um, no, not quite 30, some years ago. And there's another sign of age. I can't do math of how old I am anymore, so I'm 68, just so you know.
Speaker 1:So, with that situation of being able to receive, pretty much every woman I've ever been with has told me Robert, you're difficult to give to, and you know so. Since so many people tell me that, you know, I got to believe that, and that's a very common trait for nice guys and I think it ties it into the shame as well. I'm pretty sure it does that when I started talking with guys about getting their needs met sexual or otherwise they get a deer in the headlight. When I say talk about making their needs a priority or putting themselves first, it's kind of like I'm gonna die and and you know people, giving to us makes us uncomfortable. Even people giving us a compliment can make us uncomfortable. Like it makes us feel like we're bad or like we're gonna be like our dad or other bad men that were selfish assholes, or I'm gonna owe people something and and probably, as you're sharing, when it comes to our bodies and our sexuality, that may be. Where it manifests the most is where we have our covert contracts with women. I'll or, if we're gay with men, I'll give to you and then you'll appreciate me and love me and value me in return, or you'll give me back what I think I want in return.
Speaker 1:And so I know, when I split from my second wife and got out into the dating world, I was in my late 40s and 50s and my first two wives were my first two sexual partners. So I kind of went through what I call my integrated man-whore phase, where I had sex with a lot of women. I just made a commitment I will I'll say yes to every sexual opportunity, and so I had sex with a lot of different women and enjoyed it. It was very growth producing and powerful and as much as anything it really forced me to consciously receive. Because one of the things I found that you know this was going to sound crass but funny, we're guys is that what I realized out in the dating world there's a lot of women that took pride in their blowjobs. You know they. You know they like going down and they like giving the guy they got pleasure out of. You know I can get this guy off.
Speaker 1:And you know, because of my own sexual shame and struggles in my second marriage, around things my wife wouldn't do pretty much everything she took off the table sexually. There wasn't an option, blowjobs being one of them. I I got uncomfortable and so I you know the woman would be given to me and I go, oh all right, let me do something for you now. And they're looking at me like what? And I realized wait a minute, who am I to rob them their pleasure of giving me a good BJ? And it may be it doesn't sound like something you would get learned in therapy, but it was therapeutic in that I thought I have to practice receiving. I've got to call my nervous system that wants to just switch this around without me even thinking about it, just instinctively switch it and go back to giving them. That's what felt normal, it's where I was in my comfort zone. So I did.
Speaker 1:I practiced letting women give to me and even as recently my wife and I have been married for seven and a half years and our relationship began pretty much just as a sexual relationship. We just about first year together. She just came to my house every Saturday and we had sex and I gave her taxi money and babysitter money and sent her home. After about a year she said I like being with you. Oh no, oh no, that's not what I was, you know, and I thought I like being with her too. Well, now we've been married seven and a half years and so she's a highly sexual person, loves, loves, sex. That's her love language, is is being desired and having good sex.
Speaker 1:So I can remember, before we're married, um, we'll be having sex. She'd be doing things to me and I remember lying on the bed making myself relax, right, I'd have a mantra breathe, relax, enjoy. Because I didn't know how. I didn't know how to breathe, relax and enjoy a woman wanting to pleasure me, getting pleasure out of pleasuring me. And honestly, I don't know that I've mastered that yet. I've just totally been able to relax into it. I've come a long way because, again, my wife's highly sexual and loves to give and loves to have great sex. And so it's been a practice and I know that's rooted in sexual shame that it is not okay for me to receive and to relax and have pleasure. It almost as if that makes me a bad person, because I'm only a good person if I'm giving and I'm a bad person if I'm taking but that's shame. That's just that inaccurately internalized belief systems.
Speaker 2:Insane. I've got something to add on this which is real cool. I've just got to change a battery pack on the camera. It'll be two seconds have, you have you have, you read much frederick nature have you read any?
Speaker 1:I have not. I've not read any frederick neek he's got a really cool quote.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna give it to you in a second so the you know, cory, when you publish this podcast, you have to leave that part in. Right, you have to leave the part in with your shirt, your shirt, microphone right there, you know the wall, but you know and you're talking, you come back and you talk back and go back away again. It's just, it's just something just classically artistic. You know just about that. You know so just exuberantly innocent that you know your mic's right there, that's all you see on the camera, but you keep coming back to say something. So you got to leave that part in.
Speaker 2:Don't edit that out.
Speaker 1:I won't edit that out. We're talking about shame. We're talking about being real, being vulnerable. Yeah, got to leave it in.
Speaker 2:You read all the good stuff, so Frederica had this quote and it's. Should not the giver give thanks to the receiver for receiving Lovely, lovely, lovely? Who are we to rob them of the pleasure of giving right? And I believe that so much. And one thing I want to talk about is I think in like my life.
Speaker 1:Here's a twist to it compliments. You know, here's the deal. Usually, if somebody gives you a compliment, what's the first thing we do? Oh, we, we thank. Well, we put maybe, we thank them, yeah, but why would we give thank you for a compliment? They're getting pleasure out of whatever their compliment I like your shirt, or I like your necklace, or I like your hair, or I like your podcast, or I like the interview. They got pleasure, they're getting pleasure, and they're just expressing pleasure. Why do we have to thank them for that? All we really have to do is receive it, receive the compliment, even maybe saying thanks, yeah, I like this shirt too. Yeah, thanks, I like my necklace too. Thanks, you know. Yeah, that I really enjoyed doing that interview. Thank you, I'm glad you. You know, we don't have to thank them, we just have to receive it. It's so true. Thanking them is actually a way of pushing our shame away.
Speaker 2:I, I, I agree it is, and it's not facing it too. So I remember it was it was last year sometime and I'd be doing a bit of work on myself, especially like trying to, you know, like the sexual yogic sort of cycling throughout the body. I remember there was a period in there when I was having sex. Our relationship was awesome, literally. The pleasure for myself when I was coming was almost too much to handle. I had to literally yell. I was like, oh, like when it was happening, it was like that intense for what was happening at the time and that hasn't happened in a while. So it was cool noticing that I could have that experience.
Speaker 2:And then also outside, when I started, you know, nice guy, tendencies taken over and I was trying to be controlling and, you know, put my partner in a box and mold it. You know, mold her to be something that you know I'd want her to be and, um, you know, trying to be something that I'm not in the meantime as well, that that dwindled. But what I noticed and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this is, during the time is I actually became like more demanding. I'm like, no, I want this and I want that I want this and I want that and I want this and I want that. And I don't know if that's another part of nice guy stuff, but like that's what was happening to me at that time.
Speaker 1:You know, and probably, yeah, and that's probably you know, it's part of shadow of nice guy syndrome is that you know I begin the book with talking about all the ways where nice guys are not nice, right, anything but nice. And you know that's again when I started my own recovery, when my second wife said everybody thinks you're such a nice guy but you're not. You can be passive, aggressive, you can be hurtful, you embarrass me, you're controlling you, let me down, I can't trust you. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and you know so, there is this yin and yang to you know, all these nice guy type things, uh, the black and white to the shadow of it. And so it's funny, as I said, pretty much every woman I've been with has said like you're hard to give to, you're difficult to give to. And almost every woman I've been with has told me I'm controlling, all right.
Speaker 1:And my, my wife, who's Mexican and speak Spanish, so our, our, our conversations are all in spanish. I, I got to learn spanish after I met her. You know, for a while I just learned pretty good sex spanish. But I had to expand as we, you know, our relationship grew. But you know she'll refer to me as as mr control and I always go no, it's dr control. You know I kind of make the joke of no, get it right, it's not mr control, dr.
Speaker 2:My wife even calls me dr glover, no, it's doctor control.
Speaker 1:You know, I kind of make the joke of no, get it right, it's not Mr Control, it's Dr Glover. My wife even calls me Dr Glover. You know, it's kind of funny to have your wife call you doctor. But there's, I think they're probably two sides of the same coin.
Speaker 1:You know that difficulty receiving, but then the control, because if you think about it, it receiving kind of the way we've been talking about it, at least for you and I makes us feel out of control. Yeah right, so feeling out of control is maybe the thing we're, we're trying to guard against, we're trying to avoid, which means we've got to be in control to not feel out of control. And so even not receiving well is probably a controlling behavior, if you think about it. And you know I often say well, I'm not controlling, I just know what I like. You know why wouldn't I do things the way I like? You know, if I like my salad this way or if I like my steak cooked this way, that's not being controlling, and I don't think that is actually being controlling. But some people think you're too controlling if you have too many specifics of how you like your steak, your salad, your coffee, your latte, whatever. But when we start trying to manage people in situations. That's control, the stuff that you know that we really is out of our control. Well, what do they feel about us? What do they think about us? What I don't like when they act that way, or I want to try to get them to be different, or I want yeah, that's all control. And probably you know, if you think about it, it's still game based.
Speaker 1:Because, if you think about it, if we didn't have any shame, we'd probably be in kind of a Buddhist, non-attached kind of thing about the world. We'd probably be outcome agnostic. We'd probably be equally okay with any possible outcome in the world if we didn't have shame and maybe throw in a few other things fear and anxiety, some things but shame's got to be a big part of that. If we didn't have shame, why wouldn't we be okay with things just going whatever direction they went? It'd be an adventure. You know what, what, what you know.
Speaker 1:But other than that feeling of vulnerability, I might not get it right, I might look foolish, I might be exposed, I might, you know, embarrass myself, I might not be good enough All those things get attached to. Shame means we probably better keep things in pretty copacetic state of under at least a degree of control that at least keeps us most comfortable. And you know what, in our relationships again, if we're starting in a relationship with women, they feel that stuff, they just sense that stuff, that you know they'll call us out for being controlling or just go. I just asked her what I want or I I like it that way, or you know, you know we'll, we'll make up all these things other than was I, was I trying to manage a person or situation outside of me because I'm uncomfortable on the inside of me? And probably most of the cases, yeah, probably.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah. So it kind of made like a promise to myself recently. It's like, no matter what relationship that I'm in is, regardless of what, like, my partner says, if it's like, oh, like you're doing this and I feel that I've just like, I'm just going to trust their intuition, it's like I'm going to trust and actually think about it, cause I'm like, is her intuition on or off? And I need to take this seriously, cause if she's got an intuitive hit like, and if she says that more than once, you know what I mean and it's like, well, that's a good sign that there's something for you to work on, which I think is fantastic to learn all of this, because it's like, um, that's how you stop the tendencies and become an integrated person, how you become integrated, and I have, um, I put a lot of theories in this model that I've got. Do you know the symbol for masculinity? It's like the triangle with the horizontal line that goes through it.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so I, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know that symbol for masculinity. So I I I love doing interviews. I love learning new stuff. I shared with someone the other day I love saying stupid stuff. I've said this for a long time I love saying stupid stuff because then people will correct me and it's the best free education I know how to get. Just go around saying stupid stuff and people will educate you and correct you. No, I did not know that that is a symbol for masculinity, so I learned something new and I didn't even have to say anything stupid to find that out.
Speaker 2:It is a sign right. So the knowledge that I learned. Do you know the King Warrior, magician, lover theory?
Speaker 1:I don't know the theory. I've read the book. Read the book right. I've read parts of the book. I've got to be honest, I've not read the whole book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when they talk about, let's say, the magician in his fullness or the king in his fullness, it's like you and your entirety and you're like really integrated right, and that's like at the top of the triangle and that's where you want to get to. And I've sort of created this model through studying that and they have like triangles to show it. But I was like, okay, I want to know what the line is. I've got a question coming for you, um, that I think is going to be awesome. And then on the bottom left-hand side of the triangle, you've got like a not enough. So this would be like the avoidant nice guy right, the, uh, the nice guy who's like I'm going to avoid all this shit all the time Cause I'm too afraid to talk about it, and then I'll do everything else. And then on the other side of the bottom side of the triangle is the attached nice guy right, too enmeshed, too attached.
Speaker 1:Fusing and meshing.
Speaker 2:Okay, fusing and meshing. So basically then you've got the line at the top of the triangle. If anything is below the line, that is essentially like the shadow playing out right. That's the shadow. That's like it's unintegrated, that's the unintegrated side and, as you would know, most of the time when people are in that unintegrated phase they're banging between the two. They're like oh, they're avoiding their mesh, they're avoiding their mesh, they're avoiding their mesh. But what I find is what helps you get to the integrated guy is you have to know what the line is and then be able to get on top of it, because when you know what the line is and you can start to embody it, you can get across and be integrated. I want to know from you what's the line?
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask you that question. I thought this is your model man. I'm riveted listening, okay. Okay, what's the line? What's the line? He's saying what the line is.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think you mentioned earlier, maybe before we even started recording, you know that you read Carl Jung and you know he's got so many great quotes and one of them is until we make the unconscious conscious, it will rule our life and we'll call it fate. Right, that's the line right now, that there's probably not one way to get to that line and and probably we're going to have just a lifetime of experiences and journeys, maybe some that we consciously engage, like going to therapy or getting a coach or doing body work, getting into a men's program, reading self-help books Some of those consciously probably help us see where that line is. That line probably, since we're humans, probably always going to exist. It's probably there's always going to be shadow, right, always. Um, I don't, I could be wrong. There may be some people that do shadow work that say, no, we can, we can illuminate all shadow and we can be aware of all things. I'm not, I don't know, I'm not sure about that. But you mentioned the ping-ponging of basically the avoidant and the fusing.
Speaker 1:One of the best ways some good ways to know where your shadow is showing up, of how to make the unconscious conscious so it doesn't just keep showing up as fate, that's just how it is, is notice repetitive behaviors. Notice things you keep going back to that seemingly don't serve you, but you're drawn back to it. Notice areas where you get stuck. Notice where you know we're just. How'd I get here again? Why is this happening to me again? Those are the things that usually give us pretty good information. There's something below that right, when we keep repeating the same behaviors and so the better we get at watching this. And, as you mentioned, if you have a partner and your partner starts giving you feedback, and especially if more than one partner is giving you similar feedback if you're friends, you'd be feedback. If you go to therapy, if you get in a men's group and you're getting similar feedback, that's a pretty good sign. Take a look at it, right. Take a look at it now.
Speaker 1:You don't necessarily have to believe everything a partner says about you, because one thing I've known is 40 years as a marriage therapist and being married three times. We all project our stuff onto our partners. You know, you're this, you're that. You know where we project our mom issues, our dad dad issues we all do, but we probably pick each other. Yeah, I don't know there's be a melody that said we, we tend to pick people that have some of the worst traits of both of our parents, you know. So just know, we pick the people we get with at an unconscious level. There's that, that unconscious, you know, coming out as fate because they do live it as co-create.
Speaker 1:Familiar patterns, play familiar roles, experience, familiar. You know, this is how the world is kind of things. And if we can watch those patterns, like if we go all right with some women, I'm avoided With some, you know, women, I fuse. If we get, we get curious. To me, the key word is curiosity. If we just get curious, if our partner says you're such and such, well, it may not land, we may think that seems totally not me. That must be her ex, or.
Speaker 1:But my coach I've worked with for a number of years now, john wineland, who's worked with david data for a number of years. Now John Wineland, who's worked with David B Data for a number of years, he's got a phrase and his phrase and I love this a lot because my tendency is if I don't think they're right, I just push it away. That's not me, that's a projection, that's yourself. But his question is where might they be right? Where might they, even if it's a projection, even if it's about their daddy issues, even if it's about their ex, even if it's about all the men that have cheated on them? Where might they be right? Because they picked us for a reason right. They picked us because we somehow are familiar with their past patterns and experiences as well. So where in that unconscious, intuitive place might they be right? That doesn't mean we have to just accept it all as truth.
Speaker 1:I remember I've been told this story many times, married to my second wife, I mean we had big issues, but you know, she was the big stick that woke me up. I couldn't just get away with slide by being kind of not such a nice guy. I had to go do my work and I'm grateful we're talking today because of her, because of the book I wrote to do my work. And I'm grateful we're talking today because of her, because of the book I wrote. And I remember she went through she'd go through phases of really wanting to vilify me and tell me how terrible I was and I remember we both went to the same therapist. I was in a men's group, she was in a women's group, we went to a couple's group. She did individual work with a therapist, so we knew a lot of the same people and I remember her coming home from a group and she said you know, and the name of our therapist and the women in my women's group, they all think you're an asshole.
Speaker 1:I'm going, oh okay, I'm thinking all right. Number one what are you telling them? Number two do they really think I'm an asshole? And number three why is it important to you to tell me that? Well, you know what's the meaning of that, but it still hurt, you know, to have your wife come on and say my therapist and your therapist and all and all everybody I know thinks you're an asshole. That may hurt, right, and you know I didn't want to be an asshole. My dad was an asshole. There's a lot of asshole men out there. That's why I was a nice guy. I didn't want to be an asshole, but it still hurt. It hurt that my wife was maybe just kind of, you know, building a case about me being an asshole. And I went to a friend of mine, uh, and he and his wife were friends with my wife and I. We did activities together and I I told my friend.
Speaker 1:I said you know, this is what I just told you. He just looked at me with compassion and he said, cindy, and I don't think you're an asshole, and you know, that's all it took to. Just okay, that's her stuff, that's what she's projecting. Can I be an asshole? Yeah, as a good friend of mine told me a few years ago, I'd acted in a way that I had shame about. I should have shame. I acted badly in a situation that hurt some people. And I was talking to my friend, who's a psychologist and you know, after several conversations, because I was trying to struggle with how could I have acted this badly? I knew better. And he said, robert, he says you can be a dick. And he said, but you're not a dick. And he says, once you can integrate those two things basically bring the shadow up into consciousness he says you'll be okay, you'll have it figured out. You can be a dick, but you're not a dick.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, our partner may say something to us that may be projection, it may not be completely true, but it might have a shadow of truth to it, and it's good to have good people in your life. You can check that out with. How am I a dick, how am I an asshole? How am I controlling? And you know, if we can be open to it and not have a shame attack around, I can be a dick.
Speaker 1:I can be controlling. I can be an asshole. I can, you know, be untrustworthy. I can be dishonest, you know, even while I'm trying to be trustworthy and honest, you know, am I ever fully, 100% aware? No, probably not. So it's good to have people to check this stuff out so we don't just have a shame reaction that goes straight to defensiveness or attack or vindication. And understand it could be partly their projection, it could be all their projection and it could have a kernel of truth to it that it might not hurt to entertain and take a look at I relate to you so much in that, so thank you for saying that Everything that you said.
Speaker 2:Can you be a dick too? That's why I was laughing so much. I was like Robert, you're amazing. Thank you for doing all that work.
Speaker 1:You're amazing and you can be a dick when you can integrate those together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a reflection from my friends this is, my staff members and my mates and they just looked at me one day and they're like cory, like you're like the dad of the group, you're structured, organized and you're a dick yeah, definition of a dad right organized and a dick.
Speaker 2:Sorry guys, but it's uh, it's true, I just want the best for everyone while we're here, but, um, yeah, I just as you were saying that, I was just running through this in my mind and I was like that is absolutely fantastic. So, for everyone listening, I hope that they were like relating and laughing too. One thing I want to mention and talk about as well is like why do nice guys always get broken up with? Why are they the ones like put in the position where they breaking up with and not only broken up with? As you mentioned, they're like bad enders. They have a bad enders.
Speaker 1:Well, there's two, two questions, okay, because I'm kind of reacting a little bit because I I rarely get broken up with um, unfortunately. Actually I wish I did. I'm because I'm a bad bender, right, I, I, I I don't want to hurt anybody. Well, that's my I. The truth is I don't want to feel, right, I don't want to hurt anybody Well, that's my. The truth is I don't want to feel anxiety and I don't want to feel shame. And those are the two things pretty much driving all nice guy behavior is anxiety and shame. And so we try to repress our shame and manage our anxiety by controlling people in situations. So if somebody's upset, even if they're not upset with me, I'm uncomfortable. Maybe this is part of my nervous system, maybe it's part of who I am, but I don't like people to be upset or unhappy. I kind of like living in a world where people are happy and having a good time, and probably that distracts me from my own inner sadness or fears or things like that. I've entertained that idea. So most men are not good enders.
Speaker 1:Um, I think there's a lot that goes into that. I think part of it could be even evolutionary. I think, you know, men historically were providers and protectors for the weaker members of the tribe. And you know, if we quit providing, protecting for somebody, even if we bring this metaphorically into present day, even if you have, like a girlfriend who makes more money than you do, and you know, you know, whatever, you don't need you to provide and protect, I think there's still an evolutionary thing that it's our job to be there and take care of them and make sure that they're okay. And I think that could be wired into us, and I think it may even be wired into women genetically that if they get broken up with it's a death sentence. Because you know, in my experience women can react pretty strongly with getting broken up with, you know, even if they know it's the best thing, it's the right thing, and often they will break up before they get broken up with to avoid getting broken up with. I've seen that happen and I'm making some generalizations, but part of this could be just in our DNA. Don't give the woman a death sentence, don't hurt her, don't destroy her life.
Speaker 1:And then we got kind of the social aspect of it, that if a guy dumps a woman, well, he's a fucking asshole. You know she's a nice girl, why do you? You know why'd he don't? But if the woman breaks up with the guy, well he must be a fucking asshole. Look, she left him, you know. So it's almost there's a maybe, a no way, and I'm I'm not I'm not playing a victim card here, cause I don't, I don't believe that or like it, but I think there is a social dynamic and you know, you break up with a woman nowadays, you know she's going to go post anything and everything she wants to post on social media about you. You know, and you got no real recourse with that. So you know, there's probably a lot of reasons why we avoid breaking up.
Speaker 1:Now, for me, a big part of it was not only I didn't want to hurt anybody or anybody think I'm bad, is that for most of my life I was such a bad dater that I hung on to women way too long. I've often said my first two wives who I was married to for 25 years, between the two of them I shouldn't have dated either one of them more than three dates. Within three dates there was good, compelling reasons to not keep dating them, but because I didn't know how to get another one once I lost the one I had, I just kept staying and I'm the eternal optimist oh, this will get better. Well, they'll work through this. Or I'm committed to the relationship or I'm committed to growth. Surely they're committed to growth. And I found out pretty much every relationship I've ever been in at some point usually not, but fairly early in the relationship the woman basically digs in her heels and says that's all the further I'm going to work on me, that's all the more you can expect. Don't expect any more personal growth, any more of me working on my anxiety issues any more. You know, just dig their heels in and then I'd stay a few more years, you know, just trying to manage that thinking. Well, I want to keep working on me. Surely they want to keep working on themselves, and it's one of the things I really.
Speaker 1:I love and appreciate so many things about my wife Lupita, but one of them is is that she's just committed. If there's some stumbling block in her life, if she's afraid of anything, she has a mantra. Again, she speaks Spanish. Her mantra is Si yo quiero, yo puedo If I want to, I can. So she will not let anything stop her. She's just kind of. You know, she's going to go after it. So I know, whatever we struggle with, you know, we just had an experience last night. You're the first person I'm going to say this to, but I think she might be getting close to menopause. She's 47, so you know, it could be because it seems like lately she'll go in and out of of these moods quickly, kind of in and out, kind of like pms, but like all month long and and. So, uh, she seems to me like she'll just respond, you know, really, and and and.
Speaker 1:So yesterday something happened and she said I responded to her in kind of an irritable, impatient way and she may be right, maybe because I've been experiencing her in a certain way and um, and I said, okay, and I, kind of a little bit sarcastic, I said, okay, I'll take the blame for it. And she goes no, I'm not saying you should take the blame and she said you just didn't let me finish. And I said, well, the truth is, I didn't understand everything you said. I'm not fluent in Spanish yet. I mean, we communicate actually pretty well, but I'm not fluent, and so sometimes I just don't understand what I'm being asked or what's being said.
Speaker 1:And we kind of talked through it and then she went to her dance lesson or salsa class and came home later tonight that night and was really loving and affectionate and just said you know, I'm sorry if I was the one that came across too irritable, but you know, I I I don't want to be that way and I go. You know, it might have just well been me as well, maybe it was both of us. But she's that way, right she's. She's going to come on her shit and and and want to work through it. But in my previous relationship I just stay away too long and then of course my behavior get worse and you know, maybe I'd act out and then it would blow up and all that kind of stuff. So I'm that terrible ender. But unfortunately, I've often joked the women don't leave me, you know. I think maybe because I take such good care of them and maybe put up with so much, they don't leave me. I'm wishing they would, you know, wishing I didn't have to be the one to break up. But yes, learning to be a good ender, I think, is an essential life skill in all areas, whether it's, you know, when it's time to leave a job, when it's time to end a friendship, when it's time to, you know, renegotiate a contract, when it's time to move, when it's time to end, you know, a relationship you have with a woman.
Speaker 1:And, ironically, a quick story when I got single in my late 40s and 50s and started really learning to date, consciously, I made a commitment to practice being a better picker and a better edger. I made a commitment to practice being a good, a better picker and a better edger. So I consciously welcomed the opportunity to end a relationship, even though it made me anxious. I used to get fever blisters on my mouth when I'd be stressing should I break? I called them breakup blisters. When I started getting fever blisters, it's time to break up, right, my body was telling me that that was the unconscious becoming conscious. Right, my body was telling me that that was the unconscious becoming conscious. And if that meant I needed to break up after the first coffee date, I did.
Speaker 1:Now it wasn't a big dramatic thing. I would just say it was nice to meet you, I wish you all the best, but I wouldn't act like I'll call you when I wasn't going to call her. Right, it was after three dates. It was after having sex. It was after a month or two or three, when the woman's starting to get attached, but I knew there was no chemistry. I practiced being a good ender Now. So here's the deal.
Speaker 1:With my first two wives I stayed way too long and was not a good ender either one, and for a period of time after both of those marriages ended, they didn't want anything to do with me, they did not think well of me, okay. But when I practiced being a good ender and consciously dating and ending in a good way, in a timely way, I had an experience that in the month of December where my birthday's in December, it's the holidays, christmas time five different women, five different exes, four of whom I'd broken up with One, quit dating me after about not three or four dates since I did it give her ex a try five different exes all reached out to me happy birthday, you know. Happy holidays. Want to go get a coffee? Want to fuck? You know, there's a couple of those in there, and so five of them.
Speaker 1:And then I took my, my stepkids, out for a christ Christmas brunch in a town I used to live in, and I'm going across the restaurant and another woman that I used to date, that I'd broken up with, walks across the brunch and says, robert, do you remember me and says her name is yeah, of course I remember you. And he said I just saw you here, I just wanted to come say hi to you. Six women, six exes, five of whom I broke up with, all still thought I was a good guy. Right, All still thought well of me. So there is great value in being that good ender, even if the nice guy in this thinks they're going to be mad at me, they're going to hate me, they're going to say terrible things about me. And you know, more than one of them, I think, was sad, was hurt that I broke up with them. They, they, they liked me, they wanted to be with me, but they kept liking me afterwards because of that skillset. So good, it's a good skill to practice it is.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely insane and we're going to have to finish up the podcast there. So thank you so much. I'd love to invite you to come back on because I want to talk to you about how to get good at sex as a man and then I want to talk to you about how men can start to get into their power. I feel like we talked a lot about the shadow stuff and shame, and I was like I want to talk more about your skills on that. So a huge thank you for coming on. Good sex and power, all right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll do it again.
Speaker 2:Good sex and power. Let's go. I want to embrace it as best as possible. So thank you so much for coming on to the show. Robert Corey, thanks for the invitation. It's been a blast, Awesome man. Just for anyone who's listening as well at the moment, there's all the links in the show notes below, If you would. It is insane. I'm going to join it at some point this year and have a look in there come hang out with us.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much cool, so that's all done. I told you they always go longer they always do