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Corey Boutwell Podcast
How To Stop Sniffing Drugs & Live With Purpose #253 Ben Lowe
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I went up, did the thing and I'm like he's so right, like the reason I need to come up here is for myself. I'm so angry at myself and the next time I came up I remember like Ben, thanks so much for coming on to the show. I'm probably so stoked to be here. It's been a minute since I've been on a podcast, yeah bro, it's good to have you on here.
Speaker 2:Big thanks for coming on to invite me onto your podcast as well, so I'm excited I can return the favor yeah, bro, very cool we can jam out very cool. So yeah, as I was just saying, like before, like you know, obviously we both work with men and we hope men, you know, overcome limiting beliefs and unleash their potential and start like crushing it in life right and what I really love about your message and what you put out and what you work with is like you've come from prison drugs, alcohol and all of that shit.
Speaker 2:I want to know is, like, what do you think led you to like, go down that path? Oh, man and then, how'd you get out of it? The first thing is like what? What led you to like make those decisions?
Speaker 1:well, if I think back to it, this is only now, after doing all the work that I've done myself. Like it's like everyone, right, we start taking drugs because it's fun, it's like it's something to do, it's something that gets us to, like, you know, feel a certain way or whatever it might be. But like, and that's what it was at first, it was trying to, you know, be cool with the boys or trying to, you know, get super high at a party and just have a good time. But when I think back to it now and obviously, like, with all the work that I have done around this, it came back to the fact that I didn't feel good enough with it myself and I was looking for something that made me feel a certain way right. That certain way was, like, you know, feeling like I was good enough, feeling like I had some sort of worth, right, and for me, like it wasn't even the taking of the drugs like cause I was selling drugs. I was selling bulk amount of drugs, how many drugs? Like all the drugs, all the drugs. At one point, at one point in time, I was doing like six kilos of meth a week, which is like barrels of money buried type shit I'm not going to talk figures, but barrels of money type shit, right, like it was fucking bulk cash and it was like a lot of shit going on. And obviously, with the lifestyle that I was in with that, like there's all the stuff that comes with it, like you know, being affiliated with black gangs, you know having to worry about whether someone's going to kick your door in and all that sort of stuff, but that's like down the track Back to when I first started, though like, looking at that, it literally just came down to the fact that I never felt like I had my place in life.
Speaker 1:I never felt like I fit in with anyone. I wasn't academic, I wasn't sporty, I never really got very many praise or anything like that very much praise from my parents, and so there's always this like of like I'm not good enough and I can't do anything. That you know makes other people happy. I need to try and please other people, and when I found drugs like it started off with weed and obviously progressed from that into other things when I found drugs, it was like all of a sudden I found my people, and that was, I guess, the big realization was that if you have drugs, everyone likes you. If you're on drugs, everyone that's on drugs likes you, and it was like this almost synthetic feeling of belonging that I guess was a big thing for me. That's what I guess, drew me in and kept me there.
Speaker 2:Interesting Because I can see that happen from like, multiple point of views of like how you can actually create an addiction to it. It's like one you create addiction to it because of the heart. It's a rush. It's like one you create addiction to it because of the heart. It's a rush. It's dopamine, it's serotonin. You're going nuts, depending on the drug that you're taking. And the second is there's like another piece of addiction which comes in as like oh, I get approval from this person, so now I'm addicted to that feeling. Then I get this feeling of like fitting in. Now I get the feeling of you, your attention is on top of me. So you're getting all of these different validations from one like, from like one thing that you're doing, but multiple areas. I can just assume that that would just be like at the time, such a rush.
Speaker 1:I think something you missed there as well is, especially because I was selling drugs, was the power. Okay, because? So if, like I think back to my childhood, I fought my entire childhood to be seen and heard, why? Because I just felt like everything I did was never good enough. English, wow, never good enough for my parents.
Speaker 2:And what were your parents? Just as quickly, just a bit of backstory. Were they middle class?
Speaker 1:upper class, lower class. Yeah, honestly, to be fair, like if we actually take back the childhood, I didn't have a rough upbringing or anything like that, like for someone that has my history like, I came from a pretty, you know, white picket fence family. Uh, had a sister, you know, we had a dog. We had like this family unit and when my parents broke up when I was 13 years old, that's when shit we really went just I guess like went haywire, um, but there was definitely a lot of instability in the home, like I guess if you think about mom, she was very stressed, very angry, couldn regulate her emotions and I guess now understanding what I understand is, as children, we regulate ourselves off our mother right A lot of the time. It's like coming from the, I guess, energy that they're putting out. Dad was very similar. He was very disconnected. So if we look at like relationship dynamics, mum was the anxious, dad was the avoidant and there was so much instability in the home that nothing felt safe.
Speaker 2:I'm sure like 90% of men listening to this Australian men in particular are like oh yeah, that's me.
Speaker 1:And you know. So, dad, like he was a great dad, you know, but he was never present. You know he'd come home from work, he'd sit on the couch, sit on the drink, sit on the couch and drink his piss, you know that's what he'd do and drink his couch.
Speaker 1:Eat the couch. But that was life right. And obviously for me as a kid, I needed attention. I wanted to, you know, feel like, hey dad, look, I just did this thing, Like give me some validation, man, you know. And I didn't get that. And same with mom. Like mom was a school teacher and so her standards for us as children were like fucking high, and so there was no boundary between her when she was teaching at school or her when she was at home. It was like we were just living with a teacher Non-stop.
Speaker 2:Fucked, it was fucked, dude, it was so shit. So much control bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly right, and like we had these standards that were put on us to perform in a certain way. And so I guess, like, once again back to the power side of things. I fought my entire childhood to try and be seen and heard and all of a sudden, like I guess, entrepreneurial mindset from my when I started smoking weed, I started selling weed, yeah, and what I noticed was that I was getting less attention, people wanted me. It was like I feel important, I feel significant.
Speaker 1:One of the basic human needs is significance and I had that. Even though it might have been fleeting, it was like it was there, an intense amount of significance, an intense amount of it. Like I had people blowing my phone up all the time and that was the hardest thing was getting is getting away from that feeling of being important. You know, that feeling of being significant and, yeah, so I think for a lot of people listening, that could even be one of the biggest parts that keeps people in the drug game, whether it's, you know, with selling drugs, whether it's with taking drugs, whatever it might be, but it's like feeling like they're a part of something, feeling like they're important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's not just approval from other people as well. It's like you know, for men in particular, it's like okay, if you've got drugs as well, women want you to oh bro, 100 panties hit the floor.
Speaker 1:Let's go yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So it's like there's another, like there's like a need for, you know, intimacy that you think that you're getting in this need for connection. That is like false in the time, but it's like you know they want me for this reason because I've got drugs and the power.
Speaker 2:so I like I'm just like impressed that you were at a position where you were like you had all this power and, yes, obviously like went to prison and stuff for it, but like you had all this power. And then you were like, oh, catch you later. Like goodbye to all of that, I'm going to go do something like positive with my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, it was really one of those sliding door moments for me. I guess it was really one of those sliding door moments for me. I guess it was like there were a lot of little events that led up to it. But I think the biggest realization I had was being in jail and like for a lot of people they're like yeah, of course you're in fucking jail. But I went to jail six times, man, I was a slow learner.
Speaker 2:How many? Like what are the periods? Like how long did you go for?
Speaker 1:first, second, third, one month, the first time three months, for the next time six months, a year and a half. A couple of my other six months stints, but over six times it ended up being about four years across, um, when I was 18 to 26. So what's that? Six years ago now, it was the last time I got out. Six, seven years maybe, and um, yeah, so for about eight years prior to that it was just in and out, in and out, and the only time I wasn't smoking meth was when I was in jail, like that through that entire time. So it was pretty hectic.
Speaker 1:It's pretty hectic, but I was sitting in jail and, um, for the year and a half I spent about eight months of that, uh, in something called the reception wing. So anyone that comes into the jail, they come through the reception wing and so it's like a fucking circus man. You got people coming in off the streets. You You've got the junkies. You've got the worst of the worst. I don't know if you remember that guy that threw that chick off the balcony, gable Tosty. We had him come through Big Surfers Paradise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we had him come through the unit.
Speaker 1:This is literally the landing zone for anyone that comes into the system. It was heavy, so you're mixing with murderers, you're mixing with junkies, you're mixing with the worst, the worst, and also just like people that are stuck in there for low-level shit, like a couple of times I got locked up was for a driving charge disqualified driving because I kept skipping court. They're like you're going to jail, bro, fuck off, but um, anyways, back to the point of. That is like I saw the same faces coming in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out, like in a couple of in the couple of months I was there, or the eight months I was there, I saw the same people coming maybe three or four times. I was like, look at these fucking losers. And I was like, wait, that's me, I am one of those losers. And it was like at that point something clicked. It's like you need to make a change because you've had a pretty good upbringing, you have good family support, like you made all these fucking choices that put you there. That means you can get yourself out of it too, and so it was.
Speaker 1:At that point I sort of decided I was going to make the change and got out and started starting to become a personal trainer. But there was a lot of little moments that sort of, I guess, led up to me actually completely walking away from that lifestyle. But with the meth side of things, I had an incident where I had a guy put a gun down my throat over 20 grand come into my house, put a gun down my throat and only three or four weeks later blew off someone's leg over five grand. So there was like some real heavy shit happening in my life. I had a pretty big drama with one of the bike clubs where, like every time I was going out in public I was just getting attacked and there was just like all these things popping up in my life and I'm like, if these aren't signs that I'm not made for this or that this is not something I want to continue with, there's only two places I'm going at this point jail or dead.
Speaker 1:I've been to jail six times. What's next? You know what I mean. And so it was literally at that point in time where I was like my life I know I have so much more potential, but my life is cars. I had fucking nice watches. I had Rolexes. I always had like the freshest clothes, had it all, but it's not worth the thought that I could literally wake up one morning with a gun down my throat and just that's it. That's the end.
Speaker 2:There's nuts that, like you know you're saying that because that also happens in the business world too it's like people in the big business game. When they're like moving shit around and doing stuff, it's like, yeah, they've got all this and they might be doing like business slightly dirty and they're in like the same position. Same position, yeah, the whole world can come coming down like that. Yeah, I feel like it's um, you know, depending on the guilt and shame that you have and that's been conditioned into you and how it reacts. It's like you know, it doesn't matter. You could be like a real estate agent who's crushing it with a prostitution and cocaine addiction. Yeah, and I haven't just known have any idea like that. That's even there.
Speaker 2:But because, it's been conditioned and you've sought power and intimacy and all these other things with that. It's like, like it can happen there as well. Yeah, 100%, it's just nuts, man. It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, I was thinking in regards to what you were saying with the like, the crazy shit that was happening as well, because in a book that I was, a book that I read was crime and punishment by Fyodor Dovzhevsky. Have you heard of that book? It's a Jordan Peterson recommendation.
Speaker 2:It talks in the book is about this guy who essentially had a good upbringing. Shit got hectic and then he murdered two people. Yeah, and then in the book it goes through, he essentially set himself up to be caught, even though he didn't want to be caught, because he was so guilty and felt so much shame.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's like subconsciously happening right yeah, even though he justified the reasons is to be like, oh, this is why I want to do this.
Speaker 2:But a whole part of the story is he ends up going to jail, like prison for for like 30 years or something, and he falls in love with this woman who ends up like sticking, sticking there through him like the whole time and then he comes out and he's like a new person. But I'm just curious personally on this, because in the book it argues for like the reason that he ended up being okay at the end mentally and feeling good, was he just decided to atone. He was like I'm going, gonna atone for all the shit and like just take responsibility for, for everything and I'm gonna, you know, be a good person and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to prison, I'm gonna accept the thing and all the terms that they give me. I'm just gonna like cop it, wear on the chin and like own everything that I've gone through and throughout the process and having the person throughout the 30 years, that lady and they ended up dropping the charges to like 15 or 20 years or something because he was so well behaved.
Speaker 1:It's just a story.
Speaker 2:But he ended up getting out and being able to, you know, live part of his life with her completely changed. I'm wondering what like that process was for you man.
Speaker 1:So being in jail like even being in there for like a year and a bit, like I got out and I got straight back on the meth, like jail wasn't rehabilitation for me. It gave me a lot of time to think, but it was. I guess the big turning point for me was getting out and finding out my son was going to be born. And then after that was when the real transformation took place, because I'm like there is a little boy coming into this world and I'm his father. For the first six months of his life I had nothing to do with him. I left his mum while she was pregnant. I had to get away from that, still tied up in the same sort of industry, right? Yep, very turbulent time in my life and, to be fair, like shame and guilt, that's probably the thing I hold the most shame around. But I also know that if I hadn't have gotten away from that, nothing would have changed. But I started really looking at myself during this period of time and being like, like this little boy is going to grow up with a father. You know, what kind of father do I want to be? And this is when I sort of started to really dive into the personal development side of things and I noticed that I did have a lot of shame and guilt around the past. Right, there are things I've done that I really just wasn't proud of, right, and even then me starting as a personal trainer, I noticed that I couldn't talk to people, I couldn't connect. Like it was like I've got all this shame and all this guilt and people are going to know about it. People are going to know my story. They're it. People are gonna know my story. They're gonna think I'm a piece of shit. And I remember having conversations with like clients of mine. One was like an ex-navy officer and he was like talking about like the crime and like people that sell drugs and this sort of shit. I'm just like, oh, it's going to me because at this point in time I'm still selling packets, like I'm selling cocaine. He's talking about how these people are pieces of shit. I'm like, oh, I'm a piece of shit. Then I guess and I'm just like I can't say a fucking thing and the minute that one so what happened actually was I had like that. I guess you call it like the crossing of the threshold, right where it's like the, you get the opportunity to really lean into changing.
Speaker 1:And so what happened was I got hit with an armed robbery charge. So I got hit with an armed robbery charge from two years prior. Guy owed us some money. We went to his house I had a cast on at the time and they had videos of me in the guy's house bashing him with a cast, so it doesn't look good. You know, it's like aggravated assault, and I had this like sort of moment where I was like you either can go back to doing what you're doing like, because every time I got caught with charges it's like I'd go on the run, right, I'd gone the run, I'd rack up as many charges I could, I'd stay out for as long as I could cause I'm going back to jail, yeah, and this charge.
Speaker 1:So I was about a year into my PT career. I had a really good relationship. I was starting to build a relationship my son again and I'll get hit with this charge. My house got raided and they're looking for evidence to say that it was us that went to this house, right, and I made the decision instead to focus on my business and continue to build this empire. Because I was looking at five to eight years. I pretty much got told I am getting five to eight years jail for this. And it was like I can either go on the run and definitely go to jail or I can go on the off chance that things might work out the way I want them to.
Speaker 1:And it was at that point in time I had to take ownership because I was hiding all this past in my. I was a personal trainer right at Good Life. Because I was hiding all this past in my I was a personal trainer right at Good Life. My fitness director had no idea about this and after I got hit with the charge, I'm like fuck, I need to have this conversation Went in and spoke to my fitness director and I told him everything. I'm just like this is what's happening, this is where I'm at. And he was just like, well, I had no idea. How can we support you? And it was just like this weight just lifted and this thing inside of me just opened up and it's like maybe I'm not going to be judged for my story, maybe people aren't going to think the things that I think about myself, because that's just something I've imposed on myself, right?
Speaker 1:And about a week or two after that I put a post up on Instagram. I think you've seen it. It's a very similar one, right? I've actually done so, the one that's up there at the moment. It's like I used to be a crackhead. That's like I guess a second make of the original post, but I put a video. No, I put a photo of me as a crackhead up and then a photo of me just jacked as shit, like like at the time I was a topless waiter, so I had, like these portrait photos together. I'm like this is me, you know, and I spoke about my entire story and it just blew up.
Speaker 1:Man, the traction this post got, with people going holy shit. I had no idea. Like, oh my god, like I went through similar. Like dude, I really I love your vulnerability, like thank you so much for sharing that. It makes me feel okay about sharing it as well. And it was like once again, like this weight just got lifted, like this. It opened a whole world for me. I started being able to have conversations with people. I started being able to connect, because I no longer held this shame or this feeling of I'm not good enough or I'm different to you. It's like this is my fucking story. This is who I am, and it was that point in time where I was actually able to then start to live my life.
Speaker 2:So hectic Such a good moment. That answers the question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bro, that answers the question beautifully.
Speaker 2:It's like this moment of like let me just be naked, eh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, straight up, Come see all of me. Someone to the retreat? It's just like. This is me. This is who I am. If you don't like it, sweet yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, you know yeah. So what like other healing stuff have you done? That's like like, what are some other key moments that you've had that you do think really helped you like heal and transform the guilt, the shame and the negativity into being free?
Speaker 1:I think a big part of it was being able to share my story on Instagram. Yeah, actually now becoming that beacon of light for other men that are struggling with it, being that person of hope because it's like I with it being that person of hope because it's like I've been there. I've been literally in the pits of the pits, like the most putrid of putrid junkies, like I wasn't shooting up but I was doing some real fucking risky shit, some real questionable stuff. Like if I can come from that, I know that you can too. And being able to share that story, that's definitely helped with the healing. Actually just talking about it, being able to be like open and vulnerable around that um, that's the other big thing is obviously vulnerability.
Speaker 2:It it's still getting you every now and then Sometimes you share a story and you're like, oh, that's activated, but let's get going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it definitely happens, bro, I'm like, oh, this is hard. Your retreat, for instance, was another big part of that. Like being able to bring things up, like I had stuff buried so far down in me that like I didn't even know it existed until, like you get the oh, that is heavy, but like just being, I guess, speaking about it myself, obviously, having conversations with people and then being able to lead men, and that is definitely something that's helped me to relieve the shame and guilt because there's still that self-imposed sort of like I'm not good enough and I'm still a piece of shit junkie. But as I've, I guess, then transitioned from being that piece of shit junkie to being the pt, to now being the men's like you know, health coach on to them, being like the men's self-sabotage coach that I am now and being able to be that beacon of light for people, it's just, each step of the way it's been like almost like chipping away at the armor and dropping pieces off so I could really come through as my authentic self and nice, like if I'm being in 100% honest, like honesty here, like not sucking your dick or anything, bro, but like, but the retreat that we did was, I feel, the last part of that in this journey of where I'm at now. It's just like this is literally who I am. I'm ready to step into being the leader that I was born to be, because a lot of the stuff we did in that retreat there was the shame release, the letting go of anger, and I was always just such a happy person I always say happy but I fucking had so much anger built up deep down. Just such a happy person, right, I always say happy but fucking had so much anger built up deep down.
Speaker 1:And with doing like the, the anger release that we did, I realized it wasn't even anger directed anyone else, it was so angry at myself that I was projecting it out of the people and like that there, that that exercise is the shame release exercise, like all those things, and then just being able to like, okay, this is my power.
Speaker 1:I'm stepping into that like since then and she's been like full steam ahead, like full steam ahead, like there's no holding me back, like there's so much self-doubt, so many things that were happening in my life that I was like, no, I can't do that because of x, y and z, this story that I was telling myself since the retreat, bro, like I've literally just been like pull the trigger, connecting with people, opening networks, like just everything's just falling into place.
Speaker 1:You know crazy synchronicities, one after the other, fucking wild bro. But like there was like prior to that, like I've done like a couple of retreats, a couple of workshops, a couple of seminars and that sort of stuff, and I guess, like doing all that stuff plus and also learning about myself and like reading, um, doing a lot of journaling, just actually really diving deep on myself, going through shitty experiences and then actually looking at them after the fact and reliving them in a different light, these are all the things that definitely helped me to remove that shame and guilt from my life and see things for what they are dude crazy.
Speaker 2:I just want to touch on the point that you mentioned because, like, uh, the retreats we do, we feel like, from the, the feedback that we've got, people like it's, it's heavy lifting right, and we say that when they're maybe people, whenever I'm like, okay, when we're in here we're gonna be doing some fucking heavy lifting, everyone is here, it's an invitation. If you want to lift heavy and go max bench press, like, let's go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was max bench pressing there bro tell us about.
Speaker 2:They're like uh, because I'm just interested, because when you were like when you said before it made me laugh and like it was heavy, because I relate to that so much and I love the heavy shit, like I was generally like there was shame that I wanted to let go of at the retreat, that I was like looking for some new shame that I found from my past and I was like, oh, I can't wait.
Speaker 2:I'm like genuinely excited to let this shit go. And then you get there and you're like me on the microphone before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah um.
Speaker 2:So it happens to tell us like a little bit more about um, like the experience of the process, and then like what it, what it tangibly gave you in the moment, compared to then, like once the moment was finished, what it's given you now.
Speaker 1:Okay, so just like anything that's new or scary or foreign, it's like there was so much discomfort. You're standing there like especially let's talk about shame release I'm not going to go too far into that but like you're standing there with men and you've got the opportunity to take all your clothes off, which is, for a lot of people, very confronting. For me, I used to get paid to do it, so it's fine, but still it's just like a different environment. You know what I mean, but still it's just like a different environment.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Yeah, the settings. The setting is what makes it right, because I thought the same thing the first time that I had to do, like an exercise, like that. And then, like I was like, oh, I'll be sweet, take one step. Why is? My body shaking, like what is happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I remember literally stepping up there like so, after hearing a couple of other's shame, and I'm like I remember you're standing next to me and you're like you push me, like go, go, go, go. So fuck, all right, I get up there, got my kit off, got the bits out and I literally stood there in front of everyone looking around the eyes and I was choked up. It was like this fear. It's like these people are going to witness you. They're really going to see the things that you've done. They're really going to know everything about you. You can't wear that fucking mask anymore.
Speaker 1:And it was literally that like mask off moment where I was just like okay, this is me. And as soon as I did, I remember like the somatic release in my body, my whole body, just like, like from the stomach up, just like felt like there was this energy just reefing through me. It was wild, wild. Like I've had some breath work releases and stuff like that doing ayahuasca. I've had definitely a lot of releases, but nothing where it's just like this is who I am and this is. This is actually happening, like all me right um, crazy, just put it on there.
Speaker 2:It's crazy what you can like, facilitate in, like, because that's one thing that we like promise, come with the retreats. We're like we don't do any facilitation of breath works. We're not doing the ayahuasca, we're not doing any plant medicine, and this is going to be more hectic than any of that shit that you've done because the set and the setting is so insane and I like it.
Speaker 2:Um, how you mentioned as well before, like before you went up there, you were like man. There was one thing that I wanted to let go of, and I know that I had two and I shared both and I was just like Ben you stud.
Speaker 1:And the things I shared weren't even the things I went in there to share. They just like came to me on the way on the drive down. I was just like that's hectic, that's hectic. So there was that like before every single one of these exercises. There was like that nervousness, like there was that discomfort. There's like that do or die moment. It's like you either lean the fuck in or you're out and it was just about pulling that fucking trigger right. And the thing is, I guess and I understand this as well with all the work that I've done and the stuff I help other men to do it's like when you lean in, that's when you get rewarded, that's when it like it's like you've cracked the code, man, okay, like the universe, god, whoever you want you want to call it is testing you. That discomfort is like yeah, this is not normal, because society has told us that you don't do these things. And then you do the thing and it's just like the reward that comes from it, the feeling within yourself, the obviously after effect and how it affects everything else around you, the way you see the world. It's just everything changes With the shame and guilt release.
Speaker 1:There was still a lot of stuff that I held on to which stopped me from being able to have conversations with people. I didn't have the confidence. I'm quite a confident guy, right, I think, once I get to know people. I didn't have the confidence to go and talk to people like you know, just have a conversation with some random like since the retreat I've been having conversations with fucking everybody, like randoms and like just deep conversations, like connecting really really well, like and I honestly put that down to be able to let go of that shame and guilt. Because it's like when you hold onto that shame and guilt, like when you hold that shame and guilt within yourself, it's like you're holding back a part of you. So when you meet other people, your energy says that before you even meet them, right, and it's like if you can't connect, it's because of that. It's because you're not allowing yourself to see them, see for people to see you for who you are like goosebumps, as you were saying that yeah, this is so true, it's, it's hectic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tell us about. Um. I want to know as well, because like that's just so crazy and so freeing like I couldn't imagine. I want to know before I ask this question. I want to know what was going for your after this one make sure we talk about it to know what's going through your brain after the retreat. I want to know what you were thinking about as you were driving home.
Speaker 2:Because one thing as well, that I give credit to you, and that retreat was wild because I thought everyone lent in hard, but it's like you still have to lean in, as you know, coaching other guys, it's like you have to lean in. You've got to lean in at this point. And it's like you have to lean in. You've got to lean in at this point, and it's like you get to the edge to do something crazy. Sometimes it's even like when you have guys that's committing to the rest of your program.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I get in and they're like you know, however many time it is, it's like bro, get in. It's like you got this rest of this to go, because that's where the discomfort is, like let's get into it, even though, do that right. So I want to know, before answering that question, what's going for your mind. I want to know just about the anger for you, like how it was repressed, how it showed up and how you sort of you know reprogrammed it in your mind oh, bro, like the anger for me is like really passive, aggressive in certain ways, like I was like the the nice angry guy.
Speaker 1:It's like almost people pleasing tendencies and like I definitely worked through a lot of this over the last few years. But even coming up to the retreat, I definitely worked through a lot of this over the last few years. But even coming up to the retreat, I noticed there was a lot of times where I was struggling to set boundaries with people, especially my ex-partner, just struggling to follow through on the boundaries I set with people, and then I'd get angry at myself, I would start getting into these shitty moods and then it would be resentment and that would then turn into arguments or that would then turn into like arguments or that would turn into, you know, problems within relationships. That would turn into me not being present with my son because I just couldn't be fucked with him, because I'm just like so angry at myself and it was just like there was all these different things. That sort of came from the fact that I was angry at myself for not being a man of my word, for not, and like I think I'm actually quite good with my discipline, but there was certain areas of my life, especially within relationships, like fear of abandonment, you know, fear of losing love, where I'd like, oh, you just just love me, like I'll sacrifice myself for you, like, just love me, you know. And so I definitely noticed a lot of that coming through and, um, yeah, so anger was like, yes, I'd get angry, but the only time I'd actually feel safe to to reveal my anger was either when I was drunk or high, because, as a child, like I was a fucking angry child, like angry child, and I think, like, when you think about it sorry, mom and dad, I'm not blaming you guys here for this, but when you're, like, I guess, surrounded by anger and you see that that's the way to communicate, because that's, they just don't have the, I guess, emotional intelligence to communicate in any other way.
Speaker 1:Like for me, it was like I'd get angry, wouldn't get my way, I'd throw a fucking couch. I was like seven years old, kicking couches around, breaking windows, punching holes and walls, putting my head through walls, because once again, it's like I just wanted to be seen and heard and you're not listening. So how am I going to get my attention? In other words, right, and this definitely played out later down the track as well, like I noticed, like when I'd get into arguments with partners, I'd punch holes through walls and shit like that, like this anger, like I built it up and built it up.
Speaker 1:And built it up because I didn't feel the confidence to be able to speak about, you know, whatever I needed to speak about or have conversations around what's actually coming up for me. So, obviously, like suppress, suppress, suppress until, like you push that beach ball underwater as far as you can, all of a sudden that wants to come up and punch in the face and that's when, like the, the anger would come through. So I'd like, on the surface I was real cool, calm and collected to anyone else, but anyone else that knew me, I was really really shut off, really disconnected, really angry and I'd like lash out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, isn't it so beautiful though that, like you, you know that now like parent, your son. Yeah, Like isn't that just so crazy that you get? To like know that oh, that was me, and if he wants to get angry, it's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just let him get angry. Yeah, I just say, bro, it's all good. Like, I'm hearing you, I'm listening to you, I'm here, what do you need if he's still carrying on? I'm like, cool, well, let's have this conversation when you're ready. That's all good, just keep going. You know, whereas it used to be like I'll just turn the music up and ignore him. That's just to make it worse, but that's not cool. But like, even in saying that, like I still struggle with it from time to time, just because you know this shit doesn't mean that it just applies straight away. It's like a constant work in progress.
Speaker 2:You know it's good that you know that and you get to work on it Like it's so powerful.
Speaker 1:Cause. Imagine if raging and someone was just like you're so angry and I can see that. Let it out, you just be like okay, I'll still love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just do what you do like I'm just like thinking about that.
Speaker 2:It's like fuck, I wish someone said that to me when I was a kid, and it's so crazy as well, like you're just talking about you know from your parents and where they were at, and just like noticing that there was so much suppressed anger in there that like you channeled it and like let it out as a kid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was just like I was carrying that, and I guess the thing is as well like when I think about it now, like the reason I was so unemotionally intelligent for so many years as well is because at the age of 13, when we found out that our parents were getting a divorce, at that very point in time I remember the exact moment where I shut down my emotions and stopped myself from feeling and the only time that I started to feel was drugs. You know, the only time I felt somewhat all right was drugs. You know, I used to cut myself because I didn't know how to feel anything else and if I cut myself, at least I'd feel something. You know, for for a very long time it was like reaching out for attention because I wasn't getting it anywhere else, right. But I remember the very point in time where it's like I shut my heart down and closed myself off from ever feeling again.
Speaker 1:And then for that entire time, from like 13 through to about 30, obviously, when I got off the drugs and got away from everything, right, I noticed that I was almost carrying the burden for my mum, carrying her emotions, because I was a man in the house now, you know, and she was so unstable so I had to be the stable one, I had to be the grounded one. You know which. For a 13 year old man it's a fucking pretty rough load to carry. Like we talk about trauma, like I wasn't beaten senseless for anyone. Now, yeah, I copped a fair few wooden spoons, broke a few metal ladles and all sorts of stuff, but, like you know, I wasn't sexually abused or mentally abused or emotionally abused like if we want to look at, obviously, what emotional abuse is like, there's definitely a lot of taking love away, but like trauma can be anything right and we all have that trauma oh, big time, big time on that.
Speaker 2:And it's really cool because I'm actually reading a book at the moment, another one on shame. I read a couple books on frame, another one on shame at the moment. They're talking about how you're like conditioning, like, like shame. Conditioning can be so subtle as well and I've been looking back and I'm like you know, it's like not one piece of trauma that happens a significant moment, because that happens with trauma, what's not when it's recently.
Speaker 2:It's like a little bit more in the cup a little bit, in the cup a little bit doesn't go unless you pour it out, yeah, then it starts filling up and you're like man, all these little things.
Speaker 1:It makes so much sense, though what, yeah? And it's like just chipping away at it bit by bit, like all those times when your dad was like you know, oh, it's not good enough, you could have done better. It's like adding to the shame, right? It's like, oh, what I heard was I can't do anything, right. And I and I heard that my entire life. It was like, oh, you did great, but or, you know, like it's just that there is like creating that, you know, lack of self-belief, and that trauma is obviously then stored deep down. Yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 2:It's like why drugs are so tempting. Fuck yeah, it makes so much sense and I want to know as well just a bit back on the anger thing as well, like what was because you? How many rounds did you do? Three?
Speaker 1:The first one, bro. I came up and you got in my face. You're like what are you fucking angry about? I'm like I'm fucking angry at my ex for doing this and fucking forcing me to be a certain way. You're like you're a fucking pussy. She didn't force you to do this shit, you made that choice. And I was like, huh, I went up, did the thing and I'm so angry at myself. And the next time I came up, I remember like even just sitting there thinking about it, like after the first release. I'm like you need to stop fucking abandoning yourself, you fucking pussy, right? I'm like it's time for you to have some tough love now. Get the fuck up there and own that shit.
Speaker 1:You're angry at yourself because every time that you've had opportunities, you fucking turned away. You've let fear take control. Every time that you've been given that moment to actually be a man and stick to your fucking boundaries, you fucking cave because of pussy. Every time you've had something come up in your life, you've always taken the fucking easy option. You're not angry at anyone else but yourself and you need to take ownership of that.
Speaker 1:I remember just sitting there before I even walked up and I was crying like just this feeling of like this. Is it like this is like the heart was beating and I'm like you need to take ownership and you need to face yourself, you need to look at yourself in the fucking mirror and take accountability. And I remember just coming up to you and you're like, what are you angry at? And I'm like I'm angry myself. You're like, yeah, and I'm like, yeah, I'll fucking push you out of the way, I'll get up there. I remember just swinging that baseball bat so I couldn't swing my arms any longer, bro, and it was just like tears streaming out of my face and I was just like just letting it all out. I had no voice after that weekend, which is obviously a given but I remember just after that, just like, almost like slumping, but just like, and it was just that one breath and just let it all out.
Speaker 1:And then I did one more after that and I was like pissed off at my parents. It's like I'm angry at you guys for forcing me to be a certain way, not letting me be a kid, um, because you guys couldn't handle me being a child and that suppressed me and put me in a box, which then I noticed myself doing the same thing with my children, with my children, with my kid, and I was like I'm angry at you guys. Fuck yeah, I'm angry at you guys. And it was actually after the fact.
Speaker 1:I had a conversation with both of them and I told them straight up and mum took it like shit and dad was like fair there. So, yeah, even just like since the retreat, like I I had a big breakthrough my ayahuasca retreat. But like with the retreat with you, like even just sitting down with dad and being like this, this, this, you had conversation with your parents after the retreat, yeah, yeah dude, that happens pretty regularly it's wild, like after I've done some like similar because we got permission from preston smiles and lexi panels to do a couple exercises.
Speaker 2:Like you know um thing. Like I remember, after doing like their thing, I was just just like, immediately I was just like calling people in my family, like nice, after Like I got to tell you guys, this shit, dude congrats and that's huge. Yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, like it flicked me from being resentful to being sad, because it's like I realized that my parents were just broken people doing the best that they had. And like, even though dad, you know, was having an affair for two years, I had this conversation with him the other night. I was like, dude, have you ever had a relationship where you didn't cheat on your partner? Like this is a conversation I had with my dad. It's the first time I've actually had a conversation with him about his childhood and what happened. Like his dad abandoned him. He literally locked the front door on him and said you can't come in.
Speaker 1:When he was like 10 years old, you know, his mom was sleeping with one of his dad's mates, like and so this is him growing up. And I never knew this, you know, I had no idea about this, cause I never actually took the time to sit down and have the conversation with him and be like dad. I want to hear your story. I want to hear what happened in your childhood. I want to hear what happened because you've done everything you had to do to make yourself feel good, even if it meant hurting other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really sad place to be. It's like even if it meant hurting me and thank you because I can fucking handle it.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. I got given this gift because then it's allowed me to now move forward and break that generational trauma, because his dad before him was the same and his grandfather before him was exactly the same and it's just been passed down the line and I'm putting a stop to it here. Even like mum, same thing, just such an anxious and so shameful that she would never admit that she's not doing okay. It just makes me really sad for her because she's like 70. My dad's like 76. My mom's like 74, 73. And it's just like I love you guys, but I'm different. Now you know this isn't me. And just being able to now have a relationship with them where it's like I don't feel anger, I don't feel resentment, I don't avoid seeing them, but now I know that I don't see them because of the boundaries that I put in place for myself it's crazy.
Speaker 2:One thing I really want to talk about in that, because it's just, it's so nuts, right, and just putting real importance onto like essentially, it's like the healing, the rebuilding, the growing, the inner growth and everything else is like it impacts business. Oh, bro, bro, yeah, dude, yeah, I want to talk to you about that. How is all of this stuff? Because I I believe it's like you know your self-worth is what carries you know how much you're actually worth right, your your belief in that, and then, if it doesn't, sometimes for some people they get lucky enough where it's like I wouldn't say lucky enough they get the challenge where it's like, okay, they're not at that self-worth, but they get all the money, sort of like you did with the drugs, right, you know barrels, barrels of cash and it's like you ain't keeping it, like you ain't keeping that it's going out as quick as it comes in.
Speaker 1:I'll spend like three grand down the pokies. Man, three grand a day, like every day. I'll just sit there and pump money through the pokies. Yeah, it was fucked yeah, I wonder why I've got a shit relationship with money. You know what I mean, or why I had a shit relationship with money.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, exactly, and it's like and that comes out not just in in drugs and stuff, but it's like if you've got a successful business, you know, and if you've, and you've made like a lot of money or you set like a strong foundation and like really learn to surrender, let go and trust, it's like okay, now shit's starting to move. So I want to hear about, like recently, how all of this stuff has been impacting your business, your mission, impact everything that you've been doing with that.
Speaker 1:So it's like funny, right. Like as a PT, like I was doing quite well at one point, I was also really struggling at one point. I was also selling a lot of drugs at one point. So like I knew that if I didn't make money in a PT business, I was like a couple of grand coming this weekend it doesn't really matter, like PT is just a fun project. Until I got away from that and realized that you know, if I continued that lifestyle, I was going to end up back in the same place. But this whole, like to give you a timeline, the only job I had was as a McDonald's fucking burger flipper at 13 to 16. Then I sold drugs from 16 to like 30, right, obviously, I was working as a PT from 26 to 30 as well. But like that entire time I had no CV, no resume, no history, right. And so, coming into the PT world, it was like fuck, yeah, I did really well at first because I was like hustling, I was just like treating it like I was out there selling drugs. I was like I'm going to call every motherfucker. I'm going to get on that call list. I'm going to harass the fuck out of people until someone pays me to PT them. And in the first like week of PT bro, first two weeks, I think the first week of PT I had like six free. I had like six free. I know like sorry, like 10 free sessions booked in Right Within the first two months.
Speaker 1:I had like 20 paid PT clients. Like I was doing 20 sessions a week. I was like this is fucking easy. Foot off the gas, you know, started going to shit. I was partying every weekend, wondering why things weren't working out. So Monday to Thursday I was like I was like I feel like a bag of dicks. I'm just really just sitting with one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake at this point. And so my business was literally like for the first until I was about 31,. Just like this, like a roller coaster. It was up and down and up and down. I'd do really well because I'd feel pain.
Speaker 1:It's like, oh, I'm struggling financially. I haven't got the backing of the drugs that I used to have or whatever it might be. I'm going to make some money. So I get out there, I make some calls, I start connecting with people, I talk to people on the gym floor, whatever it might be, and then I get comfortable. It's like, oh, I've got enough rent, I'm all sweet, like it's all good. And like back to what I was talking about before about getting hit with those charges. I had to save 50 grand to pay for my lawyer fees, right and so, and so like I had to make sure I was making that much money. So I had like the pain point there to make sure I was driving hard for business.
Speaker 1:So that entire two years was the most successful I was as a PT. Because it's like I have to make this money or I am definitely going to jail. Like I might not go to jail and obviously I didn't because I'm here right, like if it wasn't for my lawyer, I'd literally probably be sitting in a cell. So like, thank you god, thank you for shard, you fucking legend.
Speaker 1:But like, as of recently, because like even in the last six months, my business was like three and a half, four, five grand a week, like I had like at one point there I did like a 30k week, which is like mad sales, and it was actually after my last breakup, and then, like I've got a relationship and because of all this self-worth stuff that was coming out, I didn't feel good enough, I didn't have the capacity to put time and effort in my business, and so I started noticing like my business was going down. I wasn't putting content out, I wasn't creative because I felt like shit. I felt like shit about myself. Like I was so focused on me, trying to feel good, because I had all this stuff outside of me that I was allowing to impact me and affect me that it took away from my business. And so, like it's back to your question, like the self-worth piece, like when I've been feeling like shit in my life, my business goes to shit, simple as that.
Speaker 1:When I've done all the things, okay, it's like after our retreat, obviously, like the one I came to with you since then, and even like the weeks leading up to that no-transcript, you know, like, so, like let's flex a little bit Like I've been signing three to five clients a week consistently for like the last four weeks I've been booking like five to seven calls like every week for like the last, you know, three to five weeks Since the retreat bro, like this big project I'm working on is just like I'm not going to talk too much about that because it's just like it's crazy, like it started off as this tiny little event that me and the boys were going to do, and we spoke about that at the retreat and like I'm still teasing it out, so I won't say too much about it but the non-for-profit, or the other one the non-for-profit, but like there's like that, but we're happening and everything is just lining up with it, like all the fucking doors I'm opening are staying open, like everyone that I'm talking to is like how can we support, how can we do this?
Speaker 1:And it's like, literally, it just comes down to that self-worth, knowing that this is what I'm doing, this is my purpose, showing up for yourself and going I'm not fucking going to stop until some doors stay open and every fucking door stayed open. So to stop until some doors stay open and every fucking door stayed open. So there's been like just like. Yeah, like business wise, like I've been the busiest I've ever been, the most inspired I've ever been and the most energized I've ever been, and I feel fucking incredible and everything that's doing that and everything's going on within the business side of things, everyone's going on. Everything that's going on within, like the personal life side of things, everything is just yeah oh, soak it all in.
Speaker 2:You had some moments where you're just going.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was on the way here. I was on the way here, right driving the car like no shirt on listening to the beats. I think I was listening to Avicii, something by Avicii, maybe even like these Days or something like that. I was just driving along and I'm like is this real life? Like one of those moments where it's just like on the way to do a podcast to talk about like this fucking business and obviously my story and shit like that. Is this real life? Like seven years ago I was sitting in a four by four cell which would be smaller than this room we're sitting in now. Is this real life? And it's just like that moment of like flick in the head where it's like you've done this, this is all you, it's all the work that you've done, all the people you've trusted, all the opportunities you've taken.
Speaker 2:It's like this is life. Gratitude, bro, so much gratitude. The last thing that I want to talk about and I want to hear your opinion on this one as well because I believe this is one of the most important things for men in general, both passionate. It's like it's getting around other men oh, bro, so important. Like I want to hear, like your story, because I know you do a new coach and stuff but like for you getting around other men and like you know, high-performing men that are focusing and working on themselves and doing the rest of it, like what's that? What's that impact being for you.
Speaker 1:It's a really good question. I love that question, bro.
Speaker 2:It's um, because I want to. I think, like you know, I really liked I was listening to some of john wineland's stuff. But john wineland's like it's a relationship coach in america. He's insane. Highly recommend, by the way, researching and listening to any of his stuff. It's awesome. And he has this mission and he wants to create like a million or something, like a thousand or millions like that, like men's groups around the world. I love that. And he was explaining his reasons for why. And I was just like man. I'm so on board with the train for what he's talking about. Like man, I'm so on board with the train for what he's talking about.
Speaker 2:I'm like yes it's so true Like we all need it so bad, consistently all the time. So I just want to hear like your perspective on that.
Speaker 1:How do men grow? I'm asking you, how do men grow? Yeah well, what's like the main thing that men need to grow?
Speaker 2:It is I'd say I'll leave it at. Like stimulation.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, well, grow it is, it's. I'd say I'll leave it at.
Speaker 1:Like stimulation yeah right, well, I'd say like being challenged yeah they need to be called out, they need to be supported right in that way. If you're hanging around like low-level men, they're not going to challenge you in a healthy way. They're, you know, going to push you in the opposite direction or try and pull you back down. They soothe you. They soothe, that's right. They they, they validate, they validate your shit behaviors. So if I take it back to now, like when I was hanging around, like all the people was hanging around when I signed drugs all they wanted was a fucking packet, so they'd validate anything I was doing they'd be like, yeah, you're a sick cunt, you're doing so good. Like you're doing so well. Like it's like, bro, I'm making buck all every week and selling packets. I don't think I'm doing that great. But no, you're the sickest cunt, you know what I mean. Like you're doing so well. Like in whose eyes and who's I was looking back at that. I'm just like, bro, wake up to yourself. As opposed to then, like getting away from that community and getting around people that are like for instance, I'm going to use mega run as an example like they were a fucking massive, pivotal point for me in my journey because I was able to get around people that were out there on a sunday morning doing cool shit. You know they were really challenging themselves, pushing each other, and like being around that sort of energy of people that are just encouraging one another, pushing each other, challenging each other, like that was where a big part of my growth was as well, and so even just take it back to my most recent relationship like I started to feel like less of a man and as soon as I exited that relationship and went back to doing the things that I used to do which was skydiving is one of them right, challenging myself myself that way hanging around men that were fucking actually doing really cool shit, like the. The group of men that I hang around are like they're all in their own field doing really cool things, pushing themselves every day. Like I've got guys that are doing like massive endurance events. I've got lads that are, you know, still even struggling with the drug and alcohol side of things, but they're out there getting after it. I've got guys that are, you know, running their own businesses and what sort of stuff. It's like these men are out there making shit happen and when you get around like a group of men and like even the community within set the standard. When you get around a group of like-minded men, it just helps you to elevate so much quicker, you know.
Speaker 1:So, like, as far as it goes for men needing to get around other men, we have this mentality that we need to do it alone. Right, because as a kid we get raised with big boys don't cry, don't be a a little bitch, don't let anyone else help you. You've got your own back, right, and it's so fucking toxic. Right, like looking at the three stages of, I guess, dependence in life. It's like dependence we're a baby. We need our parents to, you know, wipe our ass and feed us and all that sort of stuff. Then you have independence right, it's like dependence.
Speaker 1:I needed someone else to make me feel these certain ways about myself, because I was missing that within myself.
Speaker 1:To then independence, which is where a lot of men get stuck in, right, which is like I don't need anyone else and becomes egotistic.
Speaker 1:But then we want to try and transcend that, to get to, you know, interdependence, which is where I know that I'm okay with myself but I can leverage off the people around me to grow and make myself so much more powerful, because I know that together we're strong. Right alone I'm strong, but together we're even stronger, you know. So, like getting around like-minded men, and this is the thing, like, think back to it, we used to kick around in, you know, tribes as cavemen. We'd be out hunting in packs we. We weren't doing it alone, right, if you were alone, you get fucking left behind and dead. You know like the worst thing that you could obviously have happened to you back in the day of, you know, chasing saber-toothed tigers was exile, because you're pretty much like written off, you're dead. So why is it now that we feel that we have to be so independent and can't actually bring ourselves around other men? Because, I mean, it's powerful, it is.
Speaker 2:It's fucking powerful man, so much more powerful, and I just think, like some of the trauma stuff and the shame and guilt and all the rest of it, that just prevents people from opening up because they're like, no, I'm going to get hurt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, shut down, shut down, shut down. We lean out. We let it push people away. We excel ourselves, yeah, isolate ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, it's like the sky is not even a limit, you know what I mean. Like it's too small of a barrier, right, um, but yeah, what I do and ask into the podcast is where can people go to find your stuff? Get around you jump on your programs like, where are you most active?
Speaker 1:so they can find you all right. So I don't know when this podcast is going to be out, but definitely interchange coaching on instagram best way to find me. I'm pretty active on there. I respond to every message that anyone sends me. So even for men out there that are struggling with this sort of stuff obviously the self-sabotaging that I used to go through whether it be drugs, alcohol, womanizing or gambling or anything like that I'm always willing to have a conversation. Like, fuck yeah, if I can help you, I'll try and sell you, but I'm more about actually seeing how I can support. So let's have a conversation.
Speaker 1:If you need that, I've got a podcast as well, so it's the Interchange Podcast. You can find that on YouTube. There's about 93 episodes or 95 episodes there. I'm actually about to launch the second season in the next few weeks, so that's going to be good fun. Fuck yeah. And, depending on when this is released, also keep an eye out for the interchange project. So there's something very, very big coming and we're going to be so excited about this. It's going to change the fucking world all right, let's go bro.
Speaker 2:Awesome bro. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast bro thanks for having me on, bro, fucking appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you, my guy, hell yeah.